Brownell Misses Opportunity to Speak On Job Losses At Queen's Park

Bob Runciman MPP Leeds Grenville

April 7, 2006

CORNWALL – Today, Stormont, Dundas and Charlottenburgh MPP Jim Brownell introduced a Private Member’s Bill to honour the grave sites of former Premiers of the Province of Ontario. Leeds-Grenville MPP Bob Runciman expressed his concern in the Legislature, that this time could have been better utilized by Brownell to address the many economic challenges that Eastern Ontario is currently facing.

“As private members, we have one, maybe two opportunities during the life of a Parliament to present initiatives before this Legislature,” stated Runciman. “Although this is a laudable initiative, I think it could have been done (by Mr. Brownell) as a government member through other channels.”

In a couple of weeks, Runciman will be presenting a resolution before the House, calling for the creation of an Eastern Ontario secretariat lodged within the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade. Runciman hopes that all Eastern Ontario Members of Provincial Parliament, including Brownell and Premier Dalton McGuinty, will be present for this upcoming debate and will be prepared to talk about the challenges of Eastern Ontario.

The PC Riding Association of Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh will be writing to the six local municipal Councils, urging them to pass a Resolution in support of Runciman’s Private Member’s Bill.

Copies of the Hansard Transcript are listed below.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Ted Arnott): Pursuant to the standing orders, the member has 10 minutes to make his presentation. I recognize the member for Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh.

Mr. Jim Brownell (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): I rise in support of my private member's bill, a bill that I had visions of even before getting into this House. I always felt that it was important to recognize not only the Prime Minister of Canada but the Premiers of our province.

Ce projet de loi reconnaîtra les lieux de repos de ceux qui ont dirigé cette province à travers son histoire.

Before I begin, allow me to welcome Mr. Robert Leverty, director of the Ontario Historical Society, and Ms. Marjorie Stuart, a volunteer from the Ontario Genealogical Society, both of whom are in the members' gallery today. To you both, who have come out in support of this bill, and your members who have supported this bill, I welcome you. Both of you have been strong supporters of this bill. And for that I thank them and their associations. You have been supporters of the recognition of all people buried in this province in all cemeteries, recognizing their final resting places.

I would also like to thank the close to 60 communities across Ontario who have passed resolutions -- and I have the 60 resolutions with me here today -- in support of Bill 25. I also have to thank Mr. Bill Upper, councillor from the township of South Stormont, for proposing the first such resolution some time ago. He and Councillor Barry Brownlee from South Stormont moved and seconded that motion in South Stormont, and we see the support today from these 60 communities.

Above all, however, I must acknowledge and thank the Minister of Labour, the Honourable Steve Peters, for it was with his thought and ideas in previous sessions that we had a similar bill proposed. So this bill has been his brainchild, but it was certainly something that I picked up as somebody working very, very hard back in my community to support the preservation of history and heritage.

What all these men, women, associations and communities have done is support an act to recognize the men, and eventually there will be women, to whom Ontario's history was entrusted and by whom our future will be shaped.

While all of us here, as elected representatives of the people of Ontario, are entrusted with promoting and addressing the concerns of Ontarians and shaping the policy that affects their lives, it is the Premier who must provide the vision and determine the direction the province will take.

The legacy of our Premiers must be experienced in every aspect of our lives. As an example, let me tell you about Sir James Pliny Whitney, after whom the Whitney Block next door is named. Every time I walk through the Whitney Block I'm proud because Whitney represented the riding of Dundas county, which is now part of my riding of Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh. He was a noted orator, a skill he no doubt honed while a student at the Cornwall Grammar School, now called Cornwall Collegiate and Vocational School. I might add that this school, at which our first Premier, John Sandfield Macdonald, was also a student, is the oldest public high school in Ontario and celebrating its bicentennial this year. I will return to CCVS, the oldest public high school in Ontario, in a few moments.

John Pliny Whitney became the sixth Prime Minister of Ontario in 1905. Recalling his rural upbringing in the township of Williamsburg, he introduced extensive legislation pertaining to agriculture, laying much of the framework that has shaped Ontario's agricultural industry to this day. His government also laid the basis for Ontario's industrial development by creating the Ontario electric commission and passed the Workmen's Compensation Act.

This bill proposes to recognize the burial sites of our Premiers. With regard to James Pliny Whitney, his burial site is now under Lake St. Lawrence, because in the 1950s -- from 1954 to 1958 -- we had a huge project down in my riding, building a power damn at Cornwall, flooding 40,000 square acres of land and covering his boyhood home. It was his boyhood home that had to be destroyed by Ontario Hydro in order to create that hydro development.

Let us also consider Sir George Ross, who represented Middlesex West as Prime Minister of Ontario from 1899 to 1905. Sir Ross promoted the construction of a provincial railway for northern Ontario. Every member from the north can surely appreciate the importance the northern railway played in creating accessibility to the farthest reaches of the province and those living there.

As much as the vision of our Premiers has affected us all as a province, these individuals are also a source of pride to their home communities.

I return to CCVS, formerly known as the Cornwall Grammar School, as important an educational institution as any in the province. As I mentioned, the first Premier of Ontario, John Sandfield Macdonald, attended this school and, indeed, said of his experience there, "I owe all the spirit of independence, which I have maintained throughout my career, to my learning in that school." Imagine the impact these words had on the students of the day. Imagine the pride they would feel in their institution and in themselves for being the continuation of that learning. That legacy has never died. Just as I felt privileged to attend this school with such a prestigious history and heritage, so too does every student and educator who has passed through those hallowed halls.

Each community that is the last resting place of a former Premier feels that same connection to history as I felt in my riding of Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh, where both John Sandfield Macdonald and James Pliny Whitney have their burial sites and memorials, and I continue to feel that. These communities draw pride from that connection and understand the importance of recognizing the role and history those former Premiers played.

Just as the federal government acknowledges those who have steered this nation through the trials of the last century and a half, these men and their contributions deserve to be recognized by the province. I would say that such recognition is long overdue.

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The intent of this bill is to rectify the situation by marking our former Premiers' places in history. By placing a flag and erecting a plaque at these burial sites, the Minister of Culture will do more than pay respect to those who have led us in the past. The minister will be reinforcing a symbol of pride for a community and a family. The minister will also create a cultural landmark, one that will attract visitors from far and wide.

I hold in my hand a brochure from the national program for the gravesites of Canadian Prime Ministers. I can tell you that these gravesites receive many visits yearly by Canadians looking to connect with their past, by researchers and historians and by visitors curious about individuals themselves. I have no doubt that once known and properly marked, the gravesites of Ontario's former Premiers will receive similar attention.

Je vais visiter les tombes de chacun de ces anciens premiers ministres au courant des prochains mois, et j'encourage tous les membres d'en faire autant.

I would like to thank the members from Brant, Elgin-Middlesex-London, Guelph-Wellington, Haliburton-Victoria-Brock and Simcoe North for agreeing to go with me to visit the resting places of some of these gentlemen. Hopefully, the other members with former Premiers buried in their ridings will be able to visit these gravesites with me as well.

These sites are spread throughout Ontario, from here in Toronto to my riding of Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh, to Simcoe North. Our former Premiers represent the geographic diversity of the province. They are also from various political stripes, an indication of the ideological diversity of this province. This diversity is an indication of how strong the political tradition is in this province, a fact we will commemorate by recognizing the gravesites of these Premiers.

John Sandfield Macdonald, of my riding, was a Reform member, and I celebrate him. Gordon Daniel Conant was a Liberal, and our colleague the member from Oshawa celebrates him. It was just a week and a half ago that I had an opportunity of visiting in the gallery with the son of Gordon Daniel Conant.

As I mentioned earlier, members from both the government and the official opposition will be joining me in visiting memorials to the former Premiers buried in their ridings. I believe this participation speaks to the non-partisan nature of this bill as well as the character of Ontarians.

In the end, the former Premiers of Ontario were ordinary people, with families, friends and personal interests no different in those respects from any Ontarians. What set them apart were their vision, their determination and their leadership. This is the leadership that we celebrate with this bill, which I am very happy to propose and have a chance to speak to in second reading debate here this morning.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr. Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): It's my pleasure to add some comments today on Bill 25, An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario, that is being put forward by the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh.

Before I start, I would like to note that today, April 6, is Tartan Day. I'm wearing a Stewart tartan. My father, a former Premier, was well known for wearing a full-blown jacket in the Stewart tartan. A couple years ago I actually wore his jacket in here on Tartan Day, but I know that the member from Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound, who had a lot to do with making Tartan Day, will probably wear a nice tartan today. Today is the first time I've seen the Speaker, Mr. Arnott, actually wearing a kilt, a very nice kilt too, I might add.

Mr. Dave Levac (Brant): Nice knees.

Mr. Miller: I'm not going to comment on the Speaker's knees, as the member opposite has asked me to.

I just have a few minutes today to speak to Bill 25, so I think I should get to that. I certainly support Bill 25, which "requires the Minister of Culture to mark gravesites of former premiers of Ontario and permits the minister to make agreements for the care and preservation of such gravesites. In marking the gravesites, the minister shall comply with the bylaws of the cemetery" -- I think that's important -- "where the gravesite is located and shall respect the wishes of the family of the deceased Premier."

There are some 18 of these gravesites around the province. Some of them are not cared for and some have been forgotten about. I think each of those 18 Premiers in his own unique way has contributed a great deal to the history of this province. I think it is important for us to note those gravesites and to promote our history.

I do support this. I have a personal interest, of course, because my father was Premier of this province for a short time back in 1985. It was something he was very proud of. Next to his family, it was the thing he was most proud of in terms of the accomplishments in his life. I know he was extremely proud of that and I'm sure he would support this initiative, and I would be very pleased to support it.

In the bill, it notes that the power of the Minister of Culture, in this case, would allow them "by means of flags of Ontario and of Canada, plaques, signs and other suitable markings" to "mark the gravesites of former Premiers...." As the member mentioned, there is a similar program in effect for Prime Ministers.

I look forward to this bill passing. I know that the member from Haliburton wants to speak to it, so I'll let her take over in just a few minutes. I also look forward to welcoming the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh into Gravenhurst and Muskoka, where we will visit my father's, the former Premier's, gravesite.

Mr. Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I read the schedule, and I suppose it's a pretty impressive list of white male Anglos and Anglo types. I have no qualms about anybody's grave being marked appropriately and preserved with dignity. I've got no qualms about graves of Premiers being especially acknowledged so that people who are students of the history of this province can visit them and help understand -- it's like any time you travel: Whether the historic sites you visit are from the 20th century or whether they're from the 1st century, to be able to touch those things, to be able to be in the presence of those things, starts to make the connect.

Having said that, I want to talk about the graves of decades, generations, indeed centuries of workers in this province, like the graves -- some of them in disrepair to the state where they're unrecognizable -- of the canal workers down in Welland with names that at the time were oh so foreign but today are commonplace. At the time, they were foreign enough to be exotic and frightening, those southern European names and eastern European names, the forgotten heroes of this province and this country, working women and men who gave their lives building our canals, working in our factories, digging and working in our mines and dying in those mines.

I want to pay tribute, during the course of talking about how we remember, commemorate and recognize the people who have passed, to the people who have been victims of workplace violence, whose bodies were either poisoned or simply broken to the point where they could no longer live.

I appreciate the intent of the author of this bill. But I want to tell him that, especially in provincial politics, once you're gone, you're gone. The provincial political experience is so Warholian. Quite frankly, it's equally Warholian for the vast majority of federal members of Parliament. That's just the way it is. We 103 of us tend to think we're oh so important. In some respects, we are a relatively exclusive club: Only 103 Ontarians get to sit here at any given point in time. But at the end of the day, we're not the most important people, are we? The most important people are the real Ontarians out there, the ones working hard, the ones who get up at 5 a.m. every morning whether they want to or not, whether it's cold and blizzardy outside, whether they've been up all night with a sick kid; the ones who get up at 5 in the morning and go out to that work site and work, not because they like their jobs, not because they get public acclaim for doing their jobs, not because they get the occasional ego hit of being able to have their mother or their sister or one of their kids or even their spouse clip out a newspaper clipping, but because that's what you've got to do to feed your kids, pay the mortgage and make the contribution that you've got to make, hoping that your kids have a better life than you did.

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While I consider it laudable to want to acknowledge the leadership of Premiers in the province, I fear that in the course of focusing on this list of very white, very male, very Anglo types -- and I've got nothing against white male Anglo types, but the fact and the reality is that in the course of doing so, I believe that we can, perhaps if only through inadvertence, overlook the contribution of the people who weren't politically connected, the people who weren't rich, the people who weren't powerful, the people who didn't have the inside track in a political party to win that party's leadership, and then to become, oh, the Premier of Ontario.

Gosh, if we're going to recognize the gravesites of these people, let's also then record some of the stuff that went on under the premiership of people like Mitch Hepburn, who sent armed troops into Crowland to force sanitation workers on strike back into the sewer ditches. "Hepburn's hussars," they were called. If we're going to remember Mitch Hepburn and his premiership, if we're going to mark his gravesite with special marking, let's remember what Mitch Hepburn did with his OPP to working women and men in the city of Welland and Crowland when they tried to strike for a few cents an hour more wages when their kids were going hungry and literally barefoot. Where's the monument to those workers who were forced at gunpoint back into the ditches that they were digging for sewers in Crowland?

I appreciate the member telling me that there's going to be a recorded vote. Notwithstanding that everybody's going to support the bill, what's going to happen is somebody is going to make a phony "no" vote so a recorded vote can be forced. For the life of me, I don't know why. The bill is going to pass. Everybody supports the bill because it's innocuous. It's the sort of thing that the Ministry of Culture should be doing in any event without the legislation. And yes, we have a new Minister of Culture, don't we, Mr. Marchese?

Mr. Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): Yes, we do.

Mr. Kormos: I'm sure that she will tackle this issue first and foremost as a priority.

Mr. Marchese: Gravitas.

Mr. Kormos: Yes. I don't know whether Mr. Smitherman considers her a person of gravitas or not.

I have no doubt. But do you want to know what? Notwithstanding the advanced notice of the author of this bill that there's going to be a recorded vote, which is going to be arrived at artificially by somebody making a phony contra vote on the voice vote and then standing five to rise, and notwithstanding that should there be a recorded vote on Bill 71, a bill with which I've had some significant involvement during its life under previous authors, I regret I'm going to be busy for this vote. I'm going to be reflecting on working women and men whose gravesites are not only unmarked and unacknowledged but, far too often, simply paved over.

Mr. Khalil Ramal (London-Fanshawe): I guess I have the honour and privilege again to stand up and speak about this important subject matter. I want to congratulate the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh for his dedication and hard work in bringing to this House, on many different times and many different occasions, an important issue. Today we are discussing a very important issue, to preserve the graveyards of great Premiers who have served this great province for many different years.

The member from Niagara Centre was talking about injured workers. On this occasion, I'd like to inform you that I brought in a bill last week to install some kind of memorial to commemorate the people who died at work. Hopefully, we'll get support from all the members of this House. I think it's important to remember every one in this great province, the hard-working men and women who give their time, their lives, their abilities and skills to build and continue building this great province.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi (Northumberland): Great people.

Mr. Ramal: Great people.

I think it's very important to remember the people who give their talent, their intelligence and their time, and who work hard to enhance the ability of this province on many different fronts -- economically, socially, in education and in health -- and give all their time to maintain our presence, not just on this side of this beautiful country but also on the global stage.

The member from Niagara Centre was talking about Mitchell Hepburn. He talked about some incidents that happened in the past, but he forgot about the great job he did. He forgot about his ability to put this province very ably on the economic stage. That Premier, who died in 1953 and was buried in St. Thomas, which is near to my riding, did a great job for the great province of Ontario. I think he should be remembered for his great work and he should be remembered by all the people who come after -- to educate them about the great people who make a difference in our economy, who make a difference in our social situations, who make a difference in our lives.

Also, we're not going to forget our great Premier John Robarts, who everyone in this province remembers for his dedication and hard work in maintaining the ability of this province to continue to play a pivotal role in Canada and the whole world. John Robarts has been remembered on many different occasions and in many different places. Beside my house on the campus of Western, they built a special institute they call Robarts Reasearch Institute to remember his dedication to science, education and research, because he strongly believed that the only way that Ontario can succeed and go into the next century is by investing money in research and innovation. That's why the city of London and the University of Western Ontario remember his job, remember his dedication and remember his investment in research and innovation and named one of the most important institutions in the city of London, the Robarts institute, after him, to tell people about his dedication and his investment in this field.

I think it's important to us to remember those who give their abilities, who make a difference, who work hard to enhance every element of our lives. I'll give an example when we're talking about Premiers. We talk about Premiers like our Premier Dalton McGuinty, who works very hard in every front: education, health care, infrastructure, social issues, diversity, multiculturalism. He wants to make Ontario one of the greatest provinces in the whole nation, because he believes our province is the engine, the heart of this beautiful country.

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Many Premiers came, many Premiers did their best regardless of their ideology or party affiliation. We don't care about that. We care about a person who gives his heart, all his or her ability to do what is best for this nation. Sometimes we don't agree on different directions, we don't agree on different issues, we don't agree on their philosophies, but there is no doubt in my mind that when they get elected to that job, they put life and families and all personal issues aside and give all to the public, all to the province of Ontario. I think for that they should be remembered. After they die, it should be recognized. Why do we have to be different from the federal government, which recognizes all the Prime Ministers who served and died in this country?

I believe strongly that the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh is doing a great job. He knows the value and importance of this issue, to keep their memorials, their graves as cultural centres, as places people can visit. Students and people from different nations can come to visit those sites and learn about those great Premiers who did a great job for our province.

I fully support this initiative and this bill. I want to ask all the people from different sides of the House to come forward and support this, because it's a great thing to do. I'm saying it without any bias or party affiliation. It should be every one of those who served, and their Premiership should be recognized. It's very important to involve many people and to encourage many people to recognize the great Premiers who serve us.

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): I'm pleased to rise today to speak in support of Bill 25, An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario, brought in by the member for Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh. It would allow the Minister of Culture, "by means of flags of Ontario and of Canada, plaques, signs and other suitable markings" to "mark the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario." Many Premiers have been mentioned, and all Premiers should be recognized, because they have all worked to improve the quality of life for us in Ontario.

I am fortunate to boast the home and resting place in my riding of one of the most distinguished and accomplished Premiers, Leslie Frost, who was Premier of Ontario from 1949 to 1961. He was one of the longest-serving and most popular Premiers of Ontario. I think he never held less than 72% of the seats in the Legislature, which has rarely been equalled today. His achievements were the Ontario hospital insurance program, provision of equal pay for women, and vast expansion of hospitals, schools and highways. I know we have the Frost campus of Fleming College in Lindsay named after him, and I'm hoping the Leslie M. Frost centre near Dorset will remain up and operational. It's in the government's hands now.

There's an excerpt from the book Old Man Ontario, which Leslie Frost was known as. It says, "Frost had always cultivated the image of unpretentious down to earth, small-town lawyer, epitomized by the remark he was said to have made at a federal provincial conference: ` ... I look at this matter from the standpoint of the barber chair in Lindsay.'" I have taken that advice and visit the barber shops and the hairdressing salons in Lindsay to get the pulse of Ontario.

He was a man who "was not a false image by any means. He lived comfortably but simply and without great wealth, his maximum salary as Premier being $16,000 in addition to his stipend as an MPP. That his psyche was deeply rooted in the values, attitudes, and customs of non-urban central Ontario there could be no doubt."

He was a small-town lawyer, and perhaps more than any 20th century Premier, prepared Ontario for the urbanization and economic growth that exploded in the 1950s and 1960s. "Over the period of [Frost's] premiership, hundreds of millions of dollars were poured into road building. The Macdonald-Cartier Freeway alone cost $400 million, and $220 million was spent on the Ontario section of the Trans-Canada Highway." I bring that to your attention because the government announced it was sprinkling $400 million across rural and northern Ontario for roads and bridges, and we're not sure if it is actually going to be diverted to other areas. Using the inflation factor, that would be equivalent of what he spent --

Interjection.

Ms. Scott: It's not nasty, just a comparison -- it would be $2.75 billion today. So we just put that into context of what Leslie Frost did, building new highways. Many people scoffed at him at that time, building "highways to nowhere," but today they are the pathway to Ontario's prosperous future that we all enjoy, and I think we should recognize that.

When Premier Frost was buried, "It was a short, simple service with no eulogy, as he had requested. When it was over, the casket, draped in Ontario's provincial flag on which Frost's medals lay upon a purple cushion, was carried to the hearse by members of the Queen's York Rangers...."

"Reaching the cemetery on the edge of town" -- of Lindsay -- "the hearse stopped near the freshly dug gravesite next to [his wife] Gertrude's. As a gusty breeze rustled the leaves of the great, still surviving elms, in a brief burial service the mortal remains of the Laird of Lindsay were committed to the earth beside the Scugog River, in his own corner of the old Ontario he had known and loved so well."

I welcome the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh when he does visit Lindsay later this month.

Mr. Marchese: I want to say that I will be supporting this bill introduced by the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh because I think it's worthy of being supported. There are some who would say that perhaps the member should be talking about many other important issues that affect his community, such as the closing of Domtar. The closing of that mill is going to cause serious economic dislocation in his community. I believe that's going to be a matter of great debate in his riding, and I hope in his caucus; it's not before us. I know that there is no hospital in his area, and I'm sure a lot of people would say we should be talking about that. I know that farmers in his community are very worried about what's happening to them and their livelihood, but that's not before us. I know that the member -- I hear him -- is concerned about all of those things. At some point --

Mr. Brownell: Absolutely. I have been since I got here.

Mr. Marchese: He's reminding me that he's been talking about these things since he's been here. While we have no bill or resolution from the government that tells us how we're going to deal with any one of these things, I'm happy to hear that the member is talking about it on a regular basis. That should give some assurance to his constituents that he's fighting for them.

What we have before us is a bill that speaks to the preservation of gravesites of former Premiers of Ontario. I have no problem with that. I think we should be preserving their gravesites.

I have some sympathy for the argument made by the member from Niagara Centre, that is, that there are a whole lot of people in this society who work hard and are never recognized for the challenges they face, and immigrants coming to this country face the greatest challenges that we have ever seen. Many in the last 10 to 15 years have come with two degrees and can't get the job they're looking for, and are working at two or three jobs to make ends meet. If you happen to live in Toronto, the challenges of trying to make ends meet are even greater. These people, in my view -- and that's why I support some of the comments made by the member from Niagara Centre -- are worthy of bringing up. While we mention the great ones, we often omit the hard work of those who are the little people who toil away in our society and make a great, great contribution.

So yes, Premiers should be remembered and their gravesites should be remembered because they played a great political role in our province, and that I respect. But I remind the member and his party that when I and my party tried to introduce changes to the heritage act, when we were talking about cemeteries and the need to preserve the over 5,000 we have, which could easily be endangered, as so many are and as two of them have been, Cooley/Hatt in Ancaster and St. Alban's Anglican Cemetery in Palgrave -- these matters are still to be settled by the courts because the ministry in charge of their preservation, the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services, under which the Cemeteries Act falls, has not been protecting these very cemeteries that I know this member has spoken very passionately about in committee, because I've got his quote.

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I don't have the time to read his quote for the record, but he spoke passionately about his concern for cemeteries and said in committee that he would be working hard to convince his government to deal with some of the issues that I brought forth in committee, that my two colleagues brought forth in committee on a day that I wasn't able to be there. He was going to make sure that the matters connected to cemeteries were dealt with. Ms. Mossop said they're looking at changing the regulations under the Cemeteries Act. Mr. Brown, the president of this assembly, said that those matters could not be dealt with as we were dealing with the heritage act and that they would be dealt with in some future regulatory change of the Cemeteries Act.

We're still waiting. We're still waiting to hear from Mr. Brown, the member who now presides over this assembly. We're waiting for Ms. Mossop, the parliamentary assistant to that committee dealing with the heritage act. We're waiting, yes, for you, member for Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh, with your passion for cemeteries, to lead the debate on preserving cemeteries, one that would help to make your bill a little bit stronger, one that speaks to the need to preserve cemeteries as part of our heritage.

As I support this bill, I urge the member who presents this bill and the other Liberal members who spoke in that committee when we were dealing with the heritage act, when we were talking about cemeteries, when the Liberal members in that committee said, "Oh, no, we can't make any changes to the heritage act" simply because, some of them said, it was just too complicated -- I want to ask them where they have been in this last year as they spoke about their desire to change the Cemeteries Act and the regulations that they said would deal with it versus the changes we were seeking that would make the protection of cemeteries a permanent feature, that would make the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services no longer the ministry in charge of them because they're unfit to govern cemeteries as they have given up on two cemeteries that are a matter before the courts, that they have been unwilling to protect and that are being torn down by development. I'm looking forward to seeing the Liberals protect our cemeteries in the way they want to support this bill.

Mr. Levac: Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak on the bill, which I'm going to do. But I am challenged by the members for Niagara Centre and Trinity-Spadina, and I accept the challenge, in terms of making sure that we're speaking about all things.

I think we have to acknowledge that we have two things to talk about. The first is multitasking. To assume that somebody is presenting a private member's bill and that nothing else is their focus is unfair and, quite frankly, is not correct in terms of this particular member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh. He's a tireless champion of his riding and the issues that his riding is facing. I just want to put that on the record right away.

The second thing I want to put on the record is that this is private members' business. For those who are here visiting us, private members' business is supposed to be somewhat devoid of partisan politics in that we're supposed to be talking about the bill of the day and whether it is valid and whether it should be corrected or fixed or whatever and trying to stay focused on that.

Subsequent to that, I just have to make a comment that it's unfortunate that in some cases we turn this into a partisan spot when this is the opportunity for us not to do that. This is the opportunity for us to talk about the bills that are before us. Take that somewhere else, because there's enough of that going on in this place. Private members' business is a perfect opportunity for us, as colleagues in this place, to show a sign of respect that somebody's coming forward with an idea that needs to be discussed. I'm going to do that right now.

Of the 12 million Ontarians in this province, only 103 of us are elected to represent the entire wishes, dreams and aspirations of all our citizens. Hence, I accept the challenge that has been put before us by the two members from the NDP who talk about making sure that we honour all of those who worked so hard in the province of Ontario to be acknowledged. But I still think there's a significant point to be made. Of the many people who have sat as MPPs, only 24 people in 139 years have been asked to be the leaders of this province. I think it does deserve our attention. They earned the leadership of their respective parties. They earned the trust of the people of the province of Ontario. They earned the right to govern this place, with their colleagues, to try to put things right for us and do the best they can. MPPs should take the time to honour the former Premiers. Memorializing their gravesites is just one way to do that, and I think that's appropriate.

I also want to talk for a couple of minutes about the two Premiers who came from the riding I now represent. Harry Nixon represented the centre of the universe, as Walter Gretzky says, of Brant North, North county and Brant, first elected in 1919 as a candidate for the United Farmers of Ontario.

The wish list that somebody up here who is privileged gets to run our province is not true. In this House today we have people who come from all walks of life, who have got their hands torn up from the work they've done, and they do represent people from all walks of life. I look forward to the day when ethnic and multicultural people and our first female Premier have their names immortalized as well. I look forward to that in a positive way.

Harry Nixon served in cabinet and became leader and Premier in 1943. He died in 1961. His son, Robert Nixon, was also the leader of the Liberal Party, and his daughter, Jane Stewart, was MP for 13 years in the riding of Brant.

Arthur Sturgis Hardy was born in Mount Pleasant, another area in my riding. He was the fourth Premier of Ontario. He retired from politics in 1899. He represented Brant South. One thing I want to bring us: He was the commissioner when Algonquin park was created in 1889.

I just want to say that nobody has a monopoly on passion in this place. Nobody has a monopoly on all the ideas. I think this is a good one that deserves support. I thank the member for bringing it forward, and I will be supporting this bill in recognition of the great Premiers we've had in this province.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): I have a lot of respect and some affection for the member who just spoke on behalf of the government, but I have to strongly disagree with his comments. It's rather ironic, given the history of his party in opposition for 13 years and their utilization of private members' hour for, I would suggest some might clearly say, partisan purposes. Now that they're on the government benches, to be offended by some comments that could be construed as partisan is passing strange, to say the least.

I think I'm speaking on behalf of our caucus. We certainly don't have any difficulty with respect to the initiative that we're discussing today in honouring past Premiers of this province. There certainly has been a very limited number of individuals honoured with that great responsibility, and I think we will be giving it our support.

The member for Brant can construe this as partisan if he wishes. I can't argue with him on that; he's going to have a subjective interpretation. As private members, we have one, maybe two, opportunities during the life of a Parliament to present initiatives before this Legislature. Some people are unlucky enough in these lotteries to not ever get an opportunity within four years. Most of us, with some luck, get one or two. Although this is a laudable initiative, I think it could have been done, as a government member, through other channels.

My concern, as someone who also represents eastern Ontario, like the member, is the many challenges that eastern Ontario is facing, especially in the manufacturing sector. In my own riding, we've lost a significant number of manufacturing jobs. We just had another downsizing announced this past week. I know that in the member's own riding, he has had some very significant job losses, with Domtar the most significant. I think they closed their doors just this week as well, in terms of final closing. I would rather discuss that kind of issue, but I know and I do appreciate, having been a government backbencher and a government minister, that it's sometimes difficult to get approval for those when you go to caucus, if it's something where you're perhaps providing the opposition with some fodder to be critical of initiatives or lack of initiatives by the government of the day.

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It may be difficult for a private member, a government member, to get that past his colleagues or past the minister who's responsible for those kinds of initiatives. In terms of economic well-being, I would suggest that it's either the finance minister or the Minister of Economic Development and Trade. Obviously, the minister and other members would suggest that it would be giving me an opportunity to go on in a critical way, but I don't want it to be seen as criticism. I want it to be seen as recognition of some very serious challenges we're facing in the manufacturing sector across the province: 80,000 jobs lost last year, and projections of that number being equalled again this year. If you talk to people in the sector, they're not very confident about the future.

I mentioned Nitrochem in my riding. I've mentioned Hathaway closing, where Hathaway shirts started in Canada, and Mahle in Gananoque. These are smaller, surrounded by rural parts of the province. They're suffering devastating blows.

I see my friend from Northumberland here. The World's Finest Chocolate factory --

Mr. Rinaldi: They're back in business.

Mr. Runciman: He's telling me that apparently it's back in business. That's great news, because I know they were talking about transferring to Chicago. Whether that transfer has happened -- if it hasn't happened, that's wonderful news.

But I know there are a host of areas. We talked about Nestlé in Chesterville: 300 jobs. There is a very small community, surrounded by agricultural and rural uses. That is what's happening, certainly in eastern Ontario. Outside of Ottawa, outside of perhaps Kingston, the two big urban areas, there are a lot of people suffering, a lot of people in really serious difficulty.

I'm sure the member for Cornwall, Stormont and Charlottenburgh appreciates that. I just regret that we are not talking about that. Hopefully, in a couple of weeks there will be a resolution before the House calling for the creation of an eastern Ontario secretariat lodged in the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade. I hope that all the eastern Ontario members will be present and talk about the challenges. Certainly, they can talk about the positive initiatives of the government, that's to be expected, but we can also talk about the challenges. Hopefully they will all be here to support that initiative and then press their colleagues on the front bench, especially the Premier, another eastern Ontario representative, to ensure that the will of the Legislature, if indeed it is the will of the Legislature, is adopted and accepted by the government and that they move on it.

That's essentially what I want to say about this. The points made earlier with respect to the resolution or motion before us today related to preserving the gravesites of former Premiers, which is especially heartwarming for me, given that the Premiers of the province, for most of our lifetimes, have been Progressive Conservatives. So it's nice to see that recognition.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before or not, but we have the son of a former Premier as a member of this Legislature. I had the good fortune to serve with Frank Miller. Frank Miller gave me my opportunity to go into cabinet in 1985, when he became the Premier, as the Minister of Government Services. I've known a number of Premiers over my span of 25 years in this place, and I have to say that I liked them all, regardless of their political stripe, all good people, all fine people wanting to make a contribution. But Frank Miller was an exceptional guy, a truly warm person, to those of us who knew him. It's regrettable that he didn't have a longer opportunity to allow the people of Ontario to get to appreciate the Frank Miller that those of us who served with him knew and what a fine gentleman he was.

We'll be supporting this. It's a good initiative. I just think perhaps it could have been handled in a different manner.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest): It's a pleasure to have an opportunity to say a few words on this bill today. I wanted to also congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your fine attire today. I think it's different and quite special to see the Speaker dressed in that attire.

I also wanted to congratulate the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh for bringing forward Bill 25 today, An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario. What this is doing, in essence, is basically mirroring what already exists at the national level. I have with me a copy of the national program for the gravesites of Canadian Prime Ministers. This is something that Parks Canada has done at the federal level, recognizing the gravesites of Canadian Prime Ministers. I think it's appropriate and fitting that we do the same thing for the Premiers of Ontario.

There are a number of gravesites; they're pointed out in the bill today, if one looks at schedule 1, all the way from Premier John Sandfield Macdonald, our first Premier, who is buried at St. Andrews West Cemetery in Cornwall, which is in the riding of my seatmate beside me here, the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh, all the way through to Frank Miller, who is buried at Lakeview Cemetery in Gravenhurst.

In my lifetime, I have seen Frank Miller, and I would echo the sentiments quite strongly made by the member from Leeds-Grenville. He was very likable, affable, and a very competent Premier. It reminds me of when I was watching television a few months ago and one of the stations was running an old newscast dating back to the mid-1980s or so or around that time period. Frank Miller was Premier at the time. It was nice to see him on television again and to recall him. It's important that we recognize individuals like him and his predecessors who were in the position of being Premier of this province.

When you travel abroad to other countries -- I've travelled throughout Europe and elsewhere -- they go to great lengths to recognize their political, historical and literary figures. One need just walk into Westminster Abbey in London, or into the Pantheon in Rome or some of the locations in Paris, France, where writers and sculptors, as well as politicians, are recognized. This is part of creating culture and recognizing that culture.

I think my seatmate, Mr. Brownell, has brought forward an excellent bill. It's the first step towards bringing into effect a program here in Ontario to recognize the gravesites. I stand today in full support. I know he will be asking for a recorded vote today. I think it's important that we support that bill and move forward in the right direction to get this made into law.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh has two minutes to reply.

Mr. Brownell: First, I would like to thank all those who spoke in support of the bill today. I'd like to thank the members from Parry Sound-Muskoka, Niagara Centre, London-Fanshawe, Haliburton-Victoria-Brock, Trinity-Spadina, Brant, Leeds-Grenville and Scarborough Southwest.

This debate this morning centres on the Premiers of our province and the recognition that they deserve at burial sites throughout this province. Being in the Legislature this morning and welcoming Marjorie Stewart from the Ontario Genealogical Society and Rob Leverty from the Ontario Historical Society, it's a great honour for me to be here speaking on this bill with them sitting in the gallery. I met with both these individuals and indicated to them my strong support for all resting places, all gravesites, all burial locations in this riding. I've spoke of that many times.

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It was back in grade 12 that I took out my first historical society membership, the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Historical Society, and it was to work as hard as I could in my riding for history and heritage. One thing that always bothered me was traveling through the community of St. Andrews West -- and my colleague from Scarborough Southwest alluded to John Sandfield Macdonald and St. Andrews West -- passing by his gravesite there and seeing so little recognition -- a beautiful granite monument but so little recognition. I think the least we could do is to put an Ontario flag to fly over his gravesite. That's really what got me encouraged to do this. I certainly had support from the Honourable Steve Peters. That's why I brought this forward, and I appreciate all the support I received in here this morning. Thank you very much.